At the CMOS online Q&A , we get questions all the time about the doubling up of punctuation. If a sentence ends with an abbreviation, do you need two periods? If a title ends in a question mark, may a period follow? The Q&A has frequently answered such questions, but still they come.
The logic behind many punctuation rules is difficult to discern—for the excellent reason that there isn’t any. But there is at least one chunk of punctuating that does seem logical to me, and that is what I’d like to share here. It will leave many what-ifs hanging. (When I tried to rationalize punctuation with parentheses, brackets, and quotation marks, it suddenly seemed more urgent to watch television.)*
But as a start, I’d like to talk about sentence punctuation versus word punctuation.
These two popular types of punctuation serve different purposes. Sentence punctuation marks the progress of a sentence—that is, whether it’s ending or merely pausing. Word punctuation has nothing to do with pacing the sentence; rather it sticks to a word or phrase as part of its spelling.
SENTENCE PUNCTUATION
Endings
Period: I like you.
Exclamation point: I loathe you!
Question mark: Are you confused?
Pauses
Comma: I like you, but it’s complicated.
Semicolon: I like you; is that so complicated?
Colon: It’s simple: I like you.
Dash: It’s simple—I loathe you!
WORD (or PHRASE) PUNCTUATION
Abbreviations
Period: E.g.
Possessives
Apostrophe: Bryan’s neuroses; the Joneses’ car
Titles
Exclamation point: Help!
Question mark: Is There Hope?
Sentence punctuation (pausing and ending) is simple: use only one mark at a time, and no doubling up. But when words or phrases with their own punctuation move into a sentence, the word punctuation always stays next to the word, which sometimes results in two marks in a row: one for the word, and one for the sentence (whether at the pause or at the end).
The car is the Joneses’, but the keys are mine.
His favorite movie is Help!, but does he ever help?
Abbreviations—such as etc.—keep their periods, even before a dash.
Do you know the meaning of op. cit.?
Two last rules:
—Periods (..) do not double up. Why? Because that would look weird.
—A period never immediately follows an exclamation mark or question mark.** If a period collides with one of these at the end of a sentence, the word punctuation wins and the other goes away.
Do you doubt that I can finish Is There Hope?
At the end of a sentence, a single period suffices, Q.E.D.!
Are you going to see Help!?
As for pesky punctuation with quotation marks, parentheses, and brackets, ask the folks at the Q&A—they’re smarter than me.
______
*One of my favorite examples of punctuation pileup:
“Don’t be absurd!” said Henry. . . . “You remember what the Hatter said to her: ‘Not the same thing a bit! Why you might just as well say that “I see what I eat” is the same thing as “I eat what I see”!’ ” (CMOS 16, 13.28)
**Ellipsis dots occasionally follow an exclamation point or question mark after an intervening space.
Image courtesy of SYG Silh; based on original image by Zipnon, courtesy Pixabay.
Now I'm confused—and not about the punctuation.
You wrote, "...they're smarter than me." I should probably look this up in my brand-spanking new copy of CMOS16 (arrived Saturday!), but I thought the proper construction is, "They're smarter than I (am)." (The "am" being unspoken but understood.)
Or is either correct?
Posted by: Steve Hall | 08/09/2010 at 01:16 PM
I did look it up; 5-179. I think I still prefer "they're smarter than I." :)
Posted by: Steve Hall | 08/09/2010 at 01:22 PM
Steve, I believe my choice is correct for conversational writing. The formal construction is appropriate for formal documents.
Cheers,
Carol
Posted by: Carol Saller | 08/09/2010 at 01:51 PM
I agree with Steve; there is no reason to dumb down the language for conversation. When we speak correctly, we reinforce the proper use of the language.
Posted by: Mary Offermann | 08/09/2010 at 05:59 PM
love this! thank you so much.
Posted by: Linda Miller-Smith | 08/09/2010 at 08:36 PM
Good English is good English, conversational or not; this isn't like French or German where we actually have formal and informal cases (or neuter articles for that matter). If the first-person reference is the sentence object, then use 'me', not 'I'. If there is a reversed subject, then by all means use 'I'. Examples: "they're smarter than me" (object). "He and I are the users" (First-person reversed subject).
Posted by: Adrian Barri | 08/10/2010 at 07:27 AM
Carol's right: colloquially, the "they're smarter than me" works better stylistically than "they're smarter than I" -- unless you explicitly put the verb after the I.
Sometimes style and tone and voice win over pedantry.
Posted by: Joe Sokohl | 08/10/2010 at 11:53 AM
The context almost insists upon the 'me.' If she had been saying, 'They're not as smart as...', than 'I' might have been a better choice. As it is, the humble little 'me' adds to the overall charm of Carol's style.
Posted by: Nan Erkert | 08/10/2010 at 08:57 PM
(We're still talking about punctuation, right? Right?)
Posted by: Carol Saller | 10/09/2015 at 03:43 PM
@Adrian Barri re: "They're smarter than me."
I must correct you. "Me" is not an object in that sentence; it's a subject. The subject form of "me" is "I". The correct construction is "they're smarter than I", where the full phrase implied is "they're smarter than I am" or "they're smarter than how smart I am".
"Than" has nothing to do with whether nouns are subjects or objects. Whether they're subjects or objects depends only on how they're used in their phrases, regardless of whether those phrases are expressed or implied. Things contrasted by "than" must be of the same grammatical type, so if the item on one side of "than" is a subject, the item on the other side must also be a subject (if an object, an object; if a verb, a verb; etc.).
To illustrate, I've gone through several iterations of the same sentence below. The iterations with asterisks are the ones where the subject-object difference is apparent. The iteration with double asterisks is the clearest of all. Be sure to read very carefully:
SCENARIO 1 (child wants strongly, newborn is greater than toys, newborn wants weakly):
A child wants toys more than a newborn wants toys, but a child wants a newborn more than a child wants toys. In other words, a child wants toys more than a newborn, but a child wants a newborn more than toys.
The first subject wants the object more than the second subject wants the object, but the first subject wants the second subject more than the first subject wants the object. In other words, the first subject wants the object more than the second subject, but the first subject wants the second subject more than the object.
*He wants toys more than she wants toys, but he wants her more than he wants toys. In other words, he wants toys more than she, but he wants her more than toys.
*You want toys more than I want toys, but you want me more than you want toys. In other words, you want toys more than I, but you want me more than toys.
*You want toys more than I want toys, but you want me more than you want toys. In other words, you want toys more than I do, but you want me more than toys.
SCENARIO 2 (Brinkley wants strongly, toys are greater than Aiden, Aiden wants weakly):
Brinkley wants toys more than Aiden wants toys, and Brinkley wants toys more than she wants Aiden. In other words, Brinkley wants toys more than Aiden, and Brinkley wants toys more than Aiden.
The first subject wants the object more than the second subject wants the object, and the first subject wants the object more than the first subject wants the second subject. In other words, the first subject wants the object more than the second subject, and the first subject wants the object more than the second subject.
**She wants toys more than he wants toys, and she wants toys more than she wants him. In other words, she wants toys more than he, and she wants toys more than him.
I want toys more than you want toys, and I want toys more than I want you. In other words, I want toys more than you, and I want toys more than you.
*I want toys more than you want toys, and I want toys more than I want you. In other words, I want toys more than you do, and I want toys more than you.
Posted by: Account Deleted | 02/09/2018 at 10:13 PM
Thanks, Adrian, but I respectfully disagree!
The Chicago Manual of Style (17th ed.) has my back at 5.183 (http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/book/ed17/part2/ch05/psec183), and American Heritage Dictonary (s.v. "than") calls the rule insisting on "I" in such constructions "contrived" and "pedantic" (https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=than).
Would you be able to cite a current authority supporting your view?
Posted by: Carol Saller | 02/10/2018 at 09:23 AM
@Carol Fisher Saller:
I'm not Adrian; I was responding to Adrian above.
Adrian said "me" is an object in the sentence "they're smarter than me", which isn't true. "Me" is the object form of "I", but in that usage, it's performing the work of a subject. The compared (contrasted) elements on either side of "than" in any sentence have to both be of the same type, or else the sentence doesn't make sense. So since "they" is a subject and "they" is the element being compared to "me", "me" also has to be a subject.
Let me be clear: I couldn't care less whether anyone uses "me" or "I" in that sentence. That style choice was never a question I set out to address. My point is only that the grammatical function of either of those words in that position is subject, not object (i.e. "they're smarter than I" and "they're smarter than me" are functionally identical).
Sincerely,
Salz
Posted by: Account Deleted | 02/10/2018 at 05:45 PM
I'm sorry, Salz! Nice to clear that up.
I think I disagree, however. Functionally, "than" serves two distinct purposes here: it's a conjunction introducing an understood clause with the subject "I," or a preposition with the object "me."
Posted by: Carol Saller | 02/11/2018 at 10:03 AM
How should you punctuate the following sentence? Should you use both the dash and comma together?
The publication has two new contributors—one whom fans will no doubt recognize—, two new regular features, and far more content than previous iterations.
Posted by: Account Deleted | 02/15/2018 at 09:15 PM
In regard to the following sentence previously asked about for correct punctuation, I think that I would either use parentheses instead of em dashes, or I would drop the second em dash:
The publication has two new contributors—one whom fans will no doubt recognize—, two new regular features, and far more content than previous iterations.
Posted by: Mark Thompson | 04/02/2021 at 02:00 AM